On the subject of duality

I know there are different views on this, so I'll here start a thread by sharing my own thoughts on the matter. I will go by what I have experienced myself, and what I have been able to confirm to myself after hearing it from others.

So first off it is my understanding that the universe consists of positive and negative, yang - yin in eastern philosophy. This exists on all levels, from things having pros and cons and humans having both male and female characteristics. Everyone has both a male and a female side. In the universe, there are 2 main systems of positive/negative that do not mix. Those are the sides of God/Buddha and that of Demons. While all humans have both the sides in them, there is still a main alignment. In the same way as man is first and foremost a man, no matter how feminine he is, and a woman is a woman even if she is very manly. I know this view is opposite to what people think today.

But to take it to extremes - I saw someone post pics of a guy dressed as a girl, all the while calling him "her" and saying "he has a very feminine penis." This caused someone to reply "it's the male sexual organ, how the *** can it be feminine?!" This sort of clarifies what I mean, if it's "male" in alignment it just can't be defined as feminine, and same the other way around. You can have all sorts of views on this but I will remain firm that this is the way it is.

The same goes for beings of positive or negative alignment. You will not know what you are at first, because you can't see what your soul looks like. Even if you could, anyone close to the human world takes the form of things in the human world, so you can't really determine what someone is in their homeworld by looking only at their soul's image.

Some beings are demonic by nature, and some are of god/buddha nature, there is a line drawn right there. You can't be half of each if you are to leave the human incarnation cycle. Humans don't know what they are, and they all have both sides, so it's natural that you will say you believe everyone is dualistic in nature. The question is if you want to hold on to this dualism and be a human forever, or if you want to move beyond. Then you need to get rid of the side that isn't you.

From my experience, there is a hierarchy on each side, but they are completely different. On the positive side they are ruled by principle and law. Your position in the hierarchy is determined by your understanding and adaptation to the law of the universal system you are in. Contrary, on the negative side, there is no rule by law and no principles. The basis is chaos, and "ad hoc" decisions. All hierarchy on the demonic side is determined by personality, populism and rule by force. You will decide what is right based on what your inner voice tells you to do, and success is determined by your ability to make this real.

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Ok, this was a first post to draw up some lines for the discussion.

I'm glad you brought up the subject of duality, because after reading what you posted in the thread about materialization, the whole part on 'positive and negative' alignment got me wondering.

When you talk of 'positive' and 'negative', it's not a case of 'good' versus 'evil', is it? What's your opinion on 'good' and 'evil'? Are they universal absolutes? Or are they just differences in thinking and being? What is this hierarchy you talk about? What are the levels, and where does humanity fall within this system?

How does one work towards determining which alignment they belong to? Is it simply a matter of asking yourself which system (principle and law, or chaos and rule by force) you prefer?

Comet wrote:
How does one work towards determining which alignment they belong to? Is it simply a matter of asking yourself which system (principle and law, or chaos and rule by force) you prefer?

Now that's number on thing I had like to know too.
And the other is, what is if a being of positive alignment is regardless of that fact involved with succubi... will they act different with that one?

Hm... What if I'm thinking that nothing can be only black or white or good/bad, and my opinion works as if I'm capable of both good and evil things? Or there can't be such kind of thing as Neutral, taking 50/50 from each one?

Sorry but im thinking you are seeing it too simple.

Succubus themself are Duality (mostly), according to your theory this shouldn't be possible. They should be white or black not duality, or am i getting you wrong ?

Comet wrote:
When you talk of 'positive' and 'negative', it's not a case of 'good' versus 'evil', is it? What's your opinion on 'good' and 'evil'? Are they universal absolutes? Or are they just differences in thinking and being? What is this hierarchy you talk about? What are the levels, and where does humanity fall within this system?

How does one work towards determining which alignment they belong to? Is it simply a matter of asking yourself which system (principle and law, or chaos and rule by force) you prefer?

Try to imagine this as an image, because that is how I see it. I got this schematic in my mind, that I try to add things into, piece by piece. Sometimes I found my previous understanding to no longer make sense and have to discard a large part of the image.

So on one side is positive, and on the other side is negative. These two sides are seperated at the top, but they connect at the bottom. The bottom corresponds to humans, and below that is the underworld. On the positive side, they consider the top to be "good" and the bottom to be "evil." On the negative side, they have no such concept, they just have different beings with different views and ideas, and there is constant fighting at the bottom. At the top of the negative side they don't fight, because they are better at predicting what a move would result in, so they observe and act carefully.

This means, when looking at the 2 systems, on the positive side they have God at the top as a ruler, and any trouble makers are thrown down and referred to as "fallen angels." They define good and evil based on the understanding of law. God is God because his understanding of law is better than anyone else's. This is reflected in the human judicial system. On the negative side, the ruler is a demon lord or demon queen. They are unchallenged and respected because they are the best bullies and fighters.

Normally when referring to a "bully" we think of the schoolyard brute, he picks on the weak, and he will be a failure later on. His classmates are studying and will be better off, while he only fights and will not learn much. This is the view of the positive side. It is also the main ideology of the human world, because they prefer openness and honesty, so they will be the ones you see. On the negative side they don't care about social success as a thing in itself. They care about material success and if they have what they want, they don't care if people hate them or not. You won't actually see any specific examples of this openly, because noone from the negative side cares about showing off.

As for determining your alignment, I came to the conclusion about my own, after a long process. When I looked inside myself, I found things that I can't argue against, and no matter what other people do to make me change, I know for a fact that they are unable to change this part of me. In an argument or if I get criticized and attacked violently, this part of me is there objectively. I don't use any willpower to hold on to a certain view. I fall back into myself until I hit rock bottom, and it's no longer up to my will to try and change anything. I can then let other people hit on this rock bottom, and they will always lose. They may tell me that I'm stubborn and that I should change. Then I tell them: ok, you try and change me, I can't. This is different from believing in something and having ideals. It's 100% pragmatic. Those times I was told to change something about myself, and I wanted to adapt and had this will - in the end it was the will to change that was worn out. After this process I can only tell people I tried to change but I can't, because this is who I am. It's not up to me to do anything more. I have accepted this part of myself, despite other people not wanting to accept me this way.

After going through this process and comparing myself to the schematic of the universe I have formed, I had to place myself somewhere in it. This is the only way I know of to decide this. It's not very clear cut and it's not easy, but this is all I can say.

Jimy wrote:

Comet wrote:
How does one work towards determining which alignment they belong to? Is it simply a matter of asking yourself which system (principle and law, or chaos and rule by force) you prefer?

Now that's number on thing I had like to know too.
And the other is, what is if a being of positive alignment is regardless of that fact involved with succubi... will they act different with that one?

The problem that occurs if a positive being involves with succubus, is that on the positive side they consider the negative to be "evil." If a positive being does not follow the law, he will be at the bottom and not respected. On the negative side they do not have laws, so this person's involvement with succubus may give him ideas to disobey the law. Then he is "evil" and will get in trouble, if seen from the positive side.

Nethertoxin wrote:Hm... What if I'm thinking that nothing can be only black or white or good/bad, and my opinion works as if I'm capable of both good and evil things? Or there can't be such kind of thing as Neutral, taking 50/50 from each one?

That only means being human. Humans are indetermined and do not know which side they belong to. Using the concept of "good/evil" is from the positive side. The negative side do not make this distinction. As a result, the negative side can seem more tolerant and less judging.

seirus86 wrote:Sorry but im thinking you are seeing it too simple.

Succubus themself are Duality (mostly), according to your theory this shouldn't be possible. They should be white or black not duality, or am i getting you wrong ?

Succubus do not have a dualistic nature, strictly speaking. They are purely negative. But I do no not know what your concept of duality means here in this context. What I'm talking about is the inner nature of a person, their way of making decisions.

I will elaborate in the next post.

Succubus are generally referred to as "demons", and there is nothing wrong with this label. It describes what they are. The part that confuses people is the concept of good/evil used by the positive side. According to this view, "demon" means "evil", but it is not so simple. Looking only at the "fallen angels", they belong to the positive side, and they started a war against the laws of God. So they are "evil" because they have to be judged by the laws of the positive side.

True demons are not interfering with gods and are not rebelling against laws. They don't care about it all and are completely seperated from the positive side. So what they do has no effect over there and they are left alone. God doesn't care about them, and they don't care about him. It's a mutual disinterest.

For a demon to be powerful and have what (s)he wants, they need to use force and control others externally. They do not have a value system to apply and they can't "shame" someone for doing things "wrong." There is no "wrong", there are only decrees set by the ruler. Someone not following them will be bullied or punished, but there no "right" or "wrong" in it. "Morals" only means the ability of the ruler to make the minions follow and obey.

So for succubus, this means they are in fact respected (like the "awe" you have for a dangerous predator) and powerful because they are the meanest bullies and best fighters. They are also hated and feared by demons overall. Now I know you will think "but succubus are not like that, they are kind and friendly, this means they are not like what you say, they are dualistic."

To this I will say the following: Succubus can take what they want and noone can oppose them. But what you can take by force is limited. You can own someone as a slave, but you can't force someone to love you. Like anyone, succubus care about love and they want love. So to make you love them, they will be the most amazing lover and they will appear as the cutest and sweetest girl you ever met. This may look like "duality" but it is just a necessity. Modern women are now being hated and attacked because they are behaving like bitches to everyone - they have something to learn from succubus.

Ark wrote:
The problem that occurs if a positive being involves with succubus, is that on the positive side they consider the negative to be "evil." If a positive being does not follow the law, he will be at the bottom and not respected. On the negative side they do not have laws, so this person's involvement with succubus may give him ideas to disobey the law. Then he is "evil" and will get in trouble, if seen from the positive side.

So that is what the positive side considers it and the consequences seen as from the positive side.
But how is it on the negative side and how do those on the negative side treat the positive aligned one that is or decides to get involved with them? Will they cause him trouble, as the positive side sees it, just because he is positive aligned and ultimately treat that person different than a negative aligned one?

Jimy wrote:

Ark wrote:
The problem that occurs if a positive being involves with succubus, is that on the positive side they consider the negative to be "evil." If a positive being does not follow the law, he will be at the bottom and not respected. On the negative side they do not have laws, so this person's involvement with succubus may give him ideas to disobey the law. Then he is "evil" and will get in trouble, if seen from the positive side.

So that is what the positive side considers it and the consequences seen as from the positive side.
But how is it on the negative side and how do those on the negative side treat the positive aligned one that is or decides to get involved with them? Will they cause him trouble, as the positive side sees it, just because he is positive aligned and ultimately treat that person different than a negative aligned one?

The beings from the negative side will treat everyone the same. I know this is the answer you wanted to hear, because you think there may be discrimination if you are different. But you are misunderstanding the implications of this. This is in itself a positive side concept, based on "good and evil" where the one who is different is viewed as "evil." The negative side do not treat anyone differently, at all. This is - on the contrary - why it is dangerous. Positive beings can't predict or understand what true demons think about and what they want. A positive being also can't go to the negative universes, just like negative beings can't go to positive universes. By "going there" I mean "holding a position of influence."

Anyone crossing over to the opposite universe can only be there as a temporary visitor with no influence, or as a slave being who stays permanently with no influence. This goes both ways. A negative being learning the laws of god are wasting their time, and will be an easy target for other demons. If a demon was to cross over to the positive side, he would be instantly judged as "evil" and placed at the bottom, because he has no understanding of law. A positive being crossing over permanently to the negative side, has no ability to fight and protect himself, because his ability to fight is based on law. Laws are useless in the demonic worlds, because gods have no power to enforce those laws there. Laws are opposite to Chaos, and it can seem as an external dualism between these 2 systems of rule. But neither of them are dualistic on the inside.

Things may look different again when you evolve beyond the things closest to humans. This I describe here is what I can see and conclusions I have drawn about this place, adapted to what I think you wanted me to write about.

Ok, interesting... this, based on the crossing of universes, leads me to the next question. So, I suppose, a positive being might end up in the negative universe after death then by what you say?
But if that person has learned the negative ways and thinking during his/her lifetime, would they not actually have some ground there in regards of defenses and such? And would they not become less of a target too?

Ark wrote:

Jimy wrote:

Comet wrote:
How does one work towards determining which alignment they belong to? Is it simply a matter of asking yourself which system (principle and law, or chaos and rule by force) you prefer?

Now that's number on thing I had like to know too.
And the other is, what is if a being of positive alignment is regardless of that fact involved with succubi... will they act different with that one?

The problem that occurs if a positive being involves with succubus, is that on the positive side they consider the negative to be "evil." If a positive being does not follow the law, he will be at the bottom and not respected. On the negative side they do not have laws, so this person's involvement with succubus may give him ideas to disobey the law. Then he is "evil" and will get in trouble, if seen from the positive side.

Nethertoxin wrote:Hm... What if I'm thinking that nothing can be only black or white or good/bad, and my opinion works as if I'm capable of both good and evil things? Or there can't be such kind of thing as Neutral, taking 50/50 from each one?

That only means being human. Humans are indetermined and do now know which side they belong to. Using the concept of "good/evil" is from the positive side. The negative side do not make this distinction. As a result, the negative side can seem more tolerant and less judging.

seirus86 wrote:Sorry but im thinking you are seeing it too simple.

Succubus themself are Duality (mostly), according to your theory this shouldn't be possible. They should be white or black not duality, or am i getting you wrong ?

Succubus do not have a dualistic nature, strictly speaking. They are purely negative. But I do no not know what your concept of duality means here in this context. What I'm talking about is the inner nature of a person, their way of making decisions.

I will elaborate in the next post.

I Disagree completely with that, from what I've looked the concept in the Oath of Neutrality means person or being is capable of both kind of deeds, thus he chooses not by the principals of morality, but by own view on the latter. Neither side is tolerant, it's just a classical Morton's fork when you don't have any good exit from situation, because both exits have consequences that affect you or someone else.

Jimy wrote:But if that person has learned the negative ways and thinking during his/her lifetime, would they not actually have some ground there in regards of defenses and such? And would they not become less of a target too?

This is a difficult subject. At first look, it seems a positive person who learned negative behaviour, is just a degenerated person. He is still being judged by the positive standard, so he is automatically labeled "evil" by this standard. This is because the root of his being, his soul, is still firmly bound to the positive side. It's like looking in on something from outside, looking through a window, but not being able to experience it first hand. It's not possible to understand the real emotional responses you would have inside, if you are unable to feel this personally. The logical way of acting comes from the feelings you have, so it would not make any sense. You would try to theoretically understand what demons are feeling, and you would set up principles and create a theoretical system. This is a mental trap that is easy to fall into when looking at the negative from the positive side. Remember that laws and principles are the ways used on the positive side. That means theoretical thinking and making systems like this, is a practice of law. These things do no have any validity on the demonic side. As soon as you think "so this demon is this and this way, then in so and so situation he will act like this", you are using the theoretical method of positive beings to lay out principles for demonic behaviour. Demons do not follow principles. At this moment you are already at a disadvantage. Demons are irrational and do things on a whim. Their personality is an arbitrary construction that makes no sense, and they go by this personality to make decisions. That's the meaning of "demonic."

I've seen some people have trouble understanding succubus, this is the reason. If you think human girls are irrational and crazy... succubus are so many times worse than that, you've not seen anything yet.

Ark wrote:
I've seen some people have trouble understanding succubus, this is the reason. If you think human girls are irrational and crazy... succubus are so many times worse than that, you've not seen anything yet.

Well, once long agi I felt human girls are irrational and crazy, however I've come to understand in a high degree how they are ticking hehe

That all said, it's still not said, on which side one will be in the afterlife, just because being involved with succubi, right? I guess, that is also very complex?

Btw, speaking about the "duality". I think, there are two things here that have been confused. What many others, especially these from spirit keeping communities understand under "duality" is different, than what we probably are talking here. I think that's where the initial confusion came from. Many mean by that the classification of spirits/entities as to in White Arts, Dark Arts (or grey) and Black Arts, which is in it's simplest form is explained like that, that whatever belongs to white arts can and will do only good and will never harm and is even unable to act evil, that black arts is purely evil and can't do good, and that dark arts entities can choice if they are going to harm or not and if they going to do good or bad, speak they can choice to act both ways.

I just remember also something reading from Ryan's forum (if I remember correct), that succubi would be more like a loophole in this whole system? I don't recall who said it and why.

Jimy wrote:I just remember also something reading from Ryan's forum (if I remember correct), that succubi would be more like a loophole in this whole system? I don't recall who said it and why.

Perhaps you mean this?

What causes a succubus to latch onto someone from birth and then at maturity reveal themselves and make themselves known? I am primarily interested in how and what qualities they look for when choosing a human mate.

Collective reply:
Time from our side looks different from how humans look at time. To us it is a physical thing, like the paved roads of a city. The lifetime of a human may look like an opening on one of those roads. Imagine a crowd where there is nowhere to walk, and then you see a path thru it. This is what a "useful" human looks like to us. We are beyond ordinary time so we can then plan the interaction with the person since ages ago. No detail will go wrong. Because of your human mindset created by the current society this may be hard to comprehend. If someone has something, this usually means inherited experiences -genes- that reach a high point at a certain time in history, we find the person who corresponds to this state and make contact there. This is usually about getting the best mates. If you are a person like this, you may be courted by hundreds of different succubus during your life, and it has nothing to do with anything you did to summon them.

Alternatively a succubus is interested in the person's soul because they have a significant position in history. People like this can be used as a contact point to this time period by the succubus who makes contact. But this involves a bond, so each succubus needs to find their own contact for this. This part touches on the "darker" parts of the occult and the people are usually those who are somehow hopeless or as you would say in christianity "damned". It is easiest to bind those because noone else will consider it morally wrong and you can do what you want. For such a person this normally means they are naturally disconnected from enlighenment (they lack potential but are not sinners in the conventional sense)and can't be saved by someone like Jesus or Buddha, so in reality it is quite a good deal for them. They will remain as the succubus' contact for this period and will not be in hell. This is a kind of loophole that can be of benefit to both succubus and some humans.

Nethertoxin wrote:
I Disagree completely with that, from what I've looked the concept in the Oath of Neutrality means person or being is capable of both kind of deeds, thus he chooses not by the principals of morality, but by own view on the latter. Neither side is tolerant, it's just a classical Morton's fork when you don't have any good exit from situation, because both exits have consequences that affect you or someone else.

I'm not sure I understand what you disagree with. Does "oath of neutrality" refer to a specific thing?

A (human) person being capable of both kinds of deeds have nothing to do with the nature of demons versus the nature of gods. Humans have both sides, that's the meaning of being human. Demons have only the demonic side based on chaos and rule by force. Gods have only the side of lawfulness and principle. Neither of them are humans any longer, so any human perspectives does not apply to them.

As for the perceived duality of succubus, this is how a human can interpret it, when in reality it is a practical thing. No matter how mean you are, you are going to be nice to the people you like, and take care of the things you care about. It can look like benevolence, but it isn't based on any awareness of moral systems, it's just in the personality of the being.

I can use the example of a brutal dictator who collects art, and organizes concerts. He can be extremely violent when handling things he does not like, but when it comes to his interests, he treats them with care and refinement. Is this duality? People may like to think so. In my view it is just the respect of a good artwork, and it has nothing to do with morality. It means you respect what is valuable to you personally, and you do not care if this is "right" or "wrong." It comes from your feelings.

Jimy wrote:
Btw, speaking about the "duality". I think, there are two things here that have been confused. What many others, especially these from spirit keeping communities understand under "duality" is different, than what we probably are talking here. I think that's where the initial confusion came from. Many mean by that the classification of spirits/entities as to in White Arts, Dark Arts (or grey) and Black Arts, which is in it's simplest form is explained like that, that whatever belongs to white arts can and will do only good and will never harm and is even unable to act evil, that black arts is purely evil and can't do good, and that dark arts entities can choice if they are going to harm or not and if they going to do good or bad, speak they can choice to act both ways.

I'm not personally very interested in magic systems, so I can't really comment on this part. I know the basics of chaos magic, but my main practice is in meditation. The magic systems approach seems bulky and full of conventions that slow you down in my opinion. It's of no gain to fast learners.

I have a hard time imagining any spirit close to the human world to be "white" if you go by that system. If someone was incapable of evil acts, it would be a God, and they wouldn't hang around this place, even less allow humans to capture them as pets. It seems like a useless categorization since it leaves the white category empty.

Jimy wrote:

That all said, it's still not said, on which side one will be in the afterlife, just because being involved with succubi, right? I guess, that is also very complex?

This is very complex indeed.

I always end up in a reasoning about determinism. Where someone ends up is effected by so many different things, but in the end it comes down to the person's inner nature. When it all plays out materially, it will be from this very situation, all particles in the universe moving and interaction at a cellular level, as molecules, atoms etc. Is it all possible to predict? I think it is, but doesn't this mean the prediction itself is an act that is part of the flow of events? And it will effect what happens? It gets very complex very quickly.

For example I had a dream 10 years ago in which I saw a certain sitaution. This year a very complicated series of events took place, involving me making some discoveries of an occult/scientific nature. I'm not a scientist so I have no way of spreading this and no way for my discovery to be accepted widely. But I know this is just perfect. It's right there and I can use it, I've tried it and I know it works in application. This is really extreme, I know, but this discovery lead up to a series of events, caused by me using this knowledge. In the end it produced the situation I had seen in the dream 10 years ago.

Was this then predetermined? It would seem so. But then my discovery was not really a discovery, it was just the logical steps of external events, me interacting with everything else. So my thoughts and my reasoning was all predetermined to take this path, and my will had nothing to do with it? It makes everyone seem like slaves who can't control anything that happens. Your final destination would also then be completely predictable, you just haven't seen it yet.